Webinar

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I'm going to go ahead and get started. I know people still may be joining, but this will be recorded and shared. So you'll have access to anything that you may have missed. So I do want to thank everyone for being here tonight for this discussion. Learning Grief, Helping Kids Navigate the Big Feelings That Come With Loss. This webinar is being brought to you as part of our new initiative called Learning Grief. It is a free online resource that's created to help you support kids and teens navigate the big feelings that come with loss. Learning Grief is produced by WPSU and made possible with support from Imagine Learning Foundation. It is a sister initiative to Speak in Grief, which is a project WPSU produces that works to create a more grief aware society. And we want to welcome everyone here, regardless of what your role is. If you're a coach, a teacher, a parent, community leader, or any other role that places you in a position of influence with a child or teen, this is a discussion for you. We'll be talking about things like how death and non-death losses can impact kids, talking about the difference between child and adult grief, and talking especially about how we can model healthy coping skills and just relational skills for the kids and teens in our life. I'm Lindsey Whissel Fenton. I am a senior producer and director at WPSU. I'm the creator of Speaking Grief and Learning Grief. I'm a grief educator and am joined by a wonderful panel of humans doing very important work in this field. Dr. Kate Berardi is an empathy researcher who currently serves as an assistant teaching professor and coordinator of the CEDEV program at Penn State. She has 20 years of experience in education settings. And Kate's research focuses on how to increase empathy in students of all ages. And as we'll learn, empathy is a foundational skill for grief literacy. She developed Activating Empathy, a researched-backed curriculum for educators who want to increase empathy in academic settings. As a UNESCO fellow, Kate founded the Empathy Project at Penn State and works to share empathy education worldwide. Olivia Emenhiser is a member of the board of advisors for Grief Sucks, an initiative of experience camps, which is an award-winning national nonprofit that translates, transforms the lives of grieving children. Olivia's dad died when she was nine years old, and for the past seven years, she's attended experience camps. Dr. Julie Kaplow is a licensed clinical psychologist, board certified clinical child and adolescent psychology. She serves as Executive Vice President of Trauma and Grief Programs and Policy at the Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute, and Executive Director for the Trauma and Grief known as TAG centers at the Hackett Center for Mental Health in Houston and the children's hospital in New Orleans. Julie is a professor of psychiatry at Tulane University School of Medicine and CEO of the Lucine Center for Trauma and Grief, which is a group practice that provides no-cost teletherapy to youth exposed to trauma and losses across the states of Texas and Louisiana. In these roles, she oversees and develops the evaluation and treatments for traumatized and bereaved youth and disseminates informed best practices to community providers across the country. Charlene Lam is a certified grief coach, curator, and founder of the Grief Gallery. After her mother died suddenly in 2013, Charlene leaned into her creativity and instincts as a curator to guide herself through grief. She developed her curating grief framework to help people process grief in a creative, accessible way. As a grief coach, she helps grieving people navigate physical and emotional aftermath of losing a loved one, so they can move forward with living their fullest lives. And as a shout-out, she is joining us from Lisbon. She's originally from New York, but she does work with clients worldwide. Adam Stevens is a registered drama therapist who works with queer, POC, and neurodivergent youth in transforming their loss, grief, and trauma into unapologetic, abundant joy and empowerment. Adam serves as an adjunct faculty member in creative arts therapy, applied theater programs at Antioch University in Seattle, CONY, and Marymount Manhattan College in New York. They are the artistic director for NYU's Kaleidoscope Repertory Theater Company. This fall, Adam is set to begin their doctoral studies at NYU's educational theater PhD program. Adam is also a member of the board of directors, as am I, for the National Alliance for Children's Grief. And they are also the President-elect for the North American Drama Therapy Association. So I also want to welcome you and say that this discussion is for you. So we invite you to submit questions by entering them into the chat. We'll get to as many as time allows. And we're also going to include some questions that were emailed to us in people's registration forms. So I was going to start with some general what is grief literacy, debunking, some myths. But because we have so much to cover, I'm just going to dive right into things and start with Julie. We know that one of the potential points of breakdown in communication and support around grief that can happen in the spaces we're talking about for learning grief, which is between kids and adults. So, Julie, I think it would be helpful to start with how does children's grief differ from adult grief?

JULIE KAPLOW: Sure. And you're absolutely right, Lindsey. I think oftentimes what happens is that very caring, well-intentioned adults don't want to talk about grief or bereavement with kids because they don't want to upset them, and they don't want to plant seeds. But the bottom line is that children who are grieving are thinking about the deceased person, and it's only validating to them for parents to approach the topic. And so I'm so glad that we're discussing this. And I would say that there are many ways in which children's grief differs from adult grief. I think one thing to be aware of is that oftentimes grieving parents make the assumption that their child is grieving in the exact same way they are. And we've learned through our research that that's usually not the case, and that kids can experience similar feelings as adults after the death of a loved one. But some of those feelings are different. So, for example, with children, especially young children, what we typically see is that they have an approach avoidance response to the death of the loved one. So, for example, they might be very sad and very upset, and then five minutes later they're outside playing, and experiencing joy, and doing things they like to do. And then they might come back inside and 20 minutes later they're sad again. And so we see that flip flopping a lot with children where it's not always consistent. And I think oftentimes, again, very well-meaning parents get worried about that thinking, well, they don't really seem to be grieving in the same way or they're not that consistent in their grief. And we know that that's perfectly normal. We also know that within children's grief, we see three primary bereavement-related challenges that not all adults experience. But the first is separation distress. That is yearning and longing for the person who died. The second is identity distress, feeling lost without the person. And the third is circumstance-related distress, where they become very preoccupied with the way the person died. And I won't go into detail here, but the bottom line is that the way those different challenges manifest in children looks a little bit different. And so yearning and longing for a young child might be more focused on, well, who's going to take me to school? Who's going to help me with my homework? Very focused on the present. Whereas older kids or even young adults might be focused more on the future. They're not with me now, but what am I going to do when I graduate? Or who's going to walk me down the aisle? So those are the kinds of things that we often see in kids and then certainly teenagers.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: We are later in this conversation going to address a little bit more about different developmental stages. I also just saw a question in the chat that I just want to share with everyone. This will be recorded and we'll send it out using the emails you registered with. It'll also be available on the Learning Grief website once we conclude tonight. And speaking of learning grief, one thing we really emphasize through learning grief is that a great way to help grow grief literacy and comfort with talking about these big feelings around loss is that we are holistic in including both death and non-death losses alike. And so, Adam, can you give some examples of some of the non-death losses, non-death griefs that kids and teens might be carrying?

ADAM STEVENS: Sure, and this is so important. And I really appreciate that we're bringing this to light because it's often so overlooked. So when we're speaking to a lot of experiences of non-death-related grief and loss processes, we're usually connecting to youth who show up with difference, right? And it's really important to give them the space to be seen and heard because oftentimes they exist in the margins. They exist in the shadows and this is the way we can bring them into the light and center their experiences, right? And so an example that I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of queer youth right now, and how when they come out of the closet there is inevitably a loss more often than not. And sometimes they're asked to, I've come out of the closet, and now you have to get out. You're not welcome in this home anymore. You're not the child I asked for. You're not the child I wanted. And so there's a loss. These children are kicked out of their homes, their childhood homes. There's a loss of a home. There's a loss of their biological born family. There's a loss of resources connected to school, and home, and all of that, that they no longer get to access because they have to find another way of living. And it's really hard and it's really challenging. And we need to respect it and give it the importance that it deserves, and be able to have ways to work through it, right? And some of that includes creating space to listen and then listen again, and hear these stories. Creating space to validate and affirm that it may not be a death loss, but it's a loss nonetheless, and it's important. And then offering strategies and resources for them to be able to be in relationship with it, to increase their grief literacy. And part of that's for the adults, too. So I'm speaking about adults. I'm speaking about teachers, and counselors, and basketball coaches, and drama teachers, and the who have these tools who can support this youth and say, hey, listen. I don't get it. But I hear you, and I'm familiar with your experience. And I want you to be my guide. And I want you to tell me more. And oftentimes, when I'm doing this work, I work in a lot of places and I'm very fortunate to do so. But part of the work is educating on what is non-death-related loss. Because when we're thinking about loss, we're thinking about it through a very binary lens, which includes, a heteronormative family. More often than not, this family is white. It's a whole family with a mom, and a dad, 2.5 kids, and a dog, and they live in the suburbs. What we to be true is that that's not the case anymore. And that's not what families look like. And families can look all different kinds of ways. So banishing the binary, as Sonya Renee Taylor says, and leaning into difference, leaning into the possibility that we can care, and care in different ways, and offer that care throughout. So some of what I'm thinking about there, yeah? And really grateful that we're talking about it because it's so, so important. And then the last thing I'll say about it really quickly is when we're going to get funding to support these experiences, oftentimes we do not get the funding because it doesn't fit into that binary box. So once again, let's banish the binary, and expand our scope of what loss and grief is.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Yes to all that. Thank you so much. I love the banish the binary. And I want to emphasize, too, that what you'll find on learning grief are tools at learninggrief.org that will be referencing. But it's tools to really touch on a lot of what Adam just shared. They spoke about humility, and curiosity, and open dialogue, but also holding space for all these losses. And I'll just note that that's something that's very important to me personally and very important in the work we do that we can have compassion without comparison. So I just want a quick note that sometimes when we're talking about grief, people can feel that we are saying a child who is grieving their best friend who moved out of state, we're saying that's the same as a child whose sibling died. And we will never say that grief is the same. Because even within a family or with an individual, grief is not the same. But we can acknowledge that all of this grief is real and valid without that comparison. And that's really what learning grief is all about. And it's actually in recognizing and acknowledging all of those different types of grief and loss experiences that we can really build those grief literacy muscles. We received several emails around non-death losses of a different variety. So I'm going to consolidate some of those. We had Emily wrote in, how do you help children and teens deal with the loss of a parental figure who is no longer safe due to mental illness? They exist, but they are not the same person anymore and are unsafe, cruel, and unstable, so basically present and not present all at once? This is a great question. We see this also come a lot if there's substance use or other things of that nature. And we also had several other people write with similar questions about a grandparent with dementia, or Alzheimer's, or ALS that all share this experience of navigating a grief for someone who may still be alive or physically present, but is not accessible to us the way they once were. And I want to extend this to also include things like incarceration, immigration, estrangement for another reason. As Adam shared, this can also be something facing the queer youth faced with their biological families. So let's go. Charlene, do you have any thoughts on this holding space and supporting a child or teen through this non-death type of loss where their person may be here but not here?

CHARLENE LAM: Yeah. I love how you said holding space, because I think that's really what we're talking about here, right? Making room for grief and holding space for the person's experience as they're experiencing it. I think I love how Adam named not binary. All right, it's the and. I think when we're talking about loss and grief, we think we default to death-related. But if we are human, we are experiencing loss. And that's just natural. We will lose people. We will lose pets. We will lose identities, even when we experience things that we want to experience. Graduating from a school, there's loss there. So I think in all of our roles, part of what we start with is naming it. Some of us like to have labels for grief. My clients tend to. So we might call that ambiguous loss, when the person is physically there but they're not emotionally there. They're not there in the same way. So if you find that that's your style, and maybe the young person that you're working with is someone who wants to be able to put a name to it and say, oh my gosh, someone else has experienced what I'm experiencing, so much so that they put a name to it. And I can label that. And that helps me to see that my experience is not unique. I'm not alone. I think that can be so incredibly powerful. Because grief can be so lonely. It can be so isolating. So just this ability to name, this hurts. This hurts me. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I've lost. I welcome all of that.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: And the naming of this hurts, this hurts me. And Adam, you said something earlier that I loved about I may not get it, but I can see that it matters to you. So, Kate, I want to talk about one of our foundational skills that we nurture through the resources on learning grief, which is empathy. I think it's interesting that a lot of this, these skills that we need to nurture grief literacy and develop grief literacy are really just the same skills that we need to lead happy, healthy, fulfilling lives in general, and deepen relationships, empathy being one of those primary skills. And I think when we hear the term empathy, this may be starting to change, but a lot of us can feel like it's the set trait, either you have it or you don't. What has your research shown about whether or not empathy can be taught and learned? Because I think this is such a fundamental skill in this area.

KATE BERARDI: Well, thank you, Lindsey. And yes, that is one of the most exciting things about my research has been showing, I should say my research and the research that's been done before me and continues to be done by others, is that empathy can be taught. So it's both. We are born with the ability to empathize. So tiny babies can understand what their parent's emotions are and can mimic them as they get older. But the thing is, there are skills and a skill set of empathy that we can learn, such as learning to recognize emotions, learning how to understand what those emotions are, and then understanding that others have different emotions than the ones that you're feeling. And so some of these skills are things that we can teach, and practice, and learn. And it's like flexing a muscle, going to the gym and working that muscle. You can work your empathy muscle and increase your empathy. And we've also found that any amount of empathy education, whether it be an hour, whether it be a couple of days, it moves the dial of your empathy level. So just exposure to some of these skills can increase your empathy levels, either by a little, by a lot, depending on who you are. But that education can help you become more empathetic, which is really great.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: That is great, and Kate's research was also something we drew heavily upon for our empathy section in Learning Grief, one of our other main communication skills. And just to give everyone a heads up about what we're going to be talking about in order, we're going to talk about some communication skills. I know we got a lot of specific questions around different scenarios. So I want to assure you that if you emailed in a question, we do have those noted. We're we're building up to it. So I want to start with communication skills. And one of the questions we got that relates back to what Julie shared about, us assuming that kids or teens grieve the same way that we might as an adult, is we got a lot of questions around communication and communication barriers or breakdowns, specifically with grieving teens. So Olivia, want to pose this one to you. Marley asks, what can you do when the child or teen doesn't want to talk to you or a professional, but that they're sad? So I'm curious about, in your experience, Olivia, what would you say to someone who's maybe concerned that a teen in their life doesn't feel like talking to them about their grief?

OLIVIA EMENHISER: Yeah. So there's different things that you can do to like get to them, like help them with certain things, like finding healthy habits, like reading, maybe going and doing something. How we got some of our grief and anger out, we smashed pumpkins, and we did those things. So there wasn't a lot of talking and it was just a silent communication between me and my family, knowing that you're hurting, I'm hurting. And maybe sometimes we don't want to talk about our grief, but we're here for you. And there's different ways that we can show up for each other, and show that we're here and we're grieving together. And at some point, do you want to strike a conversation with them and say, do you want to talk about something? Or just maybe like lightly talk to them at different times and see what they're comfortable with, and if they want to open up at a certain time, then you're there for them. And you can talk to them about those things. And if they need to talk to a teacher or something, just make sure that you know that you're comfortable with that, and just knowing you're there for them.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you so much. And that dovetails a lot with something I'm going to share from the Learning Grief site. Adam facilitated WPSU filming with a group of students at the Thomas Jefferson Arts Academy in New Jersey. I'm going to share a video. It's short. It's a little over a minute of these students. And the advice they offered to adults who are trying to connect with and support grieving teens. So I'm going to switch over and play that very brief video.

[VIDEO PLAYBACK]

- For an adult trying to connect with a teen that's going through a kind of loss, try not to treat them like they're only a kid, because they're not just a kid. They're still human. And they have emotions just like you do. And you wouldn't want someone to come up to you and talk to you childishly and treat you like your opinions don't matter, especially when you feel very strongly that they do.

- Everyone says that you're going to be all right, but do they really know?

- I think I would have liked to hear that your struggles do matter.

- I would say if the child is asking for space to give them the space that they need, because I feel like parents, they're really worried about their kid and they want to make sure that their kid is OK. So they go into an overprotective, like overbearing area. And it makes a kid feel very overwhelmed. So I feel like parents should just give their kids the space that they need when they ask for it.

- Advice that I would give to an adult is to be easy on them. Teens and kids sometimes just, they need understanding, and they need to just be able to speak to you without being judged.

- Try to really be open-minded. It really means a lot to someone my age, especially coming from an older person.

[END PLAYBACK]

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: So again, that's just one of many of our new resources available on Learning Grief. But shout out to Adam for facilitating that. And I want to say one of the things that really stood out to me in this video and also while we were filming these with the students is that several students conveyed that frustration about feeling like their loss experiences might be dismissed by peers or by adults in their lives. To paraphrase, this could look like saying things like, oh you're just a kid, or it's not that big of a deal. Julie, I want to go back to you about the difference that validation versus invalidation can make to anyone, but especially a child or teen, as they navigate their grief experience for whatever type of loss they may be grieving.

JULIE KAPLOW: Sure. I think, as we all do, when we feel seen and heard, it is the best feeling in the world. And I think because our society is always so focused on fixing the problem or making it all better, and certainly as parents, that is often what we're focused on. Sometimes it means that we are overlooking the importance of, again as we said before, naming the feeling and validating that feeling is OK, whatever that feeling is. And we know that kids experience such a wide range of feelings after the death of a loved one. And that can range from, sadness to fear. Is this going to happen to someone else? To even feelings of guilt if they don't feel as though they're grieving in the way that society wants them to grieve. And so I think, again, it really goes back to allowing whatever those feelings are to come out, and to allow the child to guide the conversation. I think oftentimes as caring adults, we provide them with a ton of information and are trying to elicit all these responses. And the best thing we can do is simply bear witness to their pain and validate that this is hard, and to let them know I am here, and I'm present, and I want to hear what you have to say, no matter how tough it is to talk about it. So I think that being present and really wanting to hear is something that we have found, both anecdotally but also in the research, as one of the most important protective factors after the death of a loved one or after any type of loss.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: That's all so important. And I want to also, you talked about the different feelings they might feel. Another one of those similar videos that lives on the website, those same students were talking about some of the emotions that come up. And something that came up a lot, and it's also come up with some of my other work, is also that sometimes it's just numbness or it's a sense of confusion and not necessarily having that language around what they're feeling. So I'm not a clinician, but just from having spoken with people, I feel like that can sometimes, if a child is expressing a numbness or just not really certain, that I think may be read as distance or is that I don't want to talk about it. And it may just be sometimes we just need a minute. Even as adults, we don't always know what we're feeling. To go back though to the video and the theme around feeling validated and heard, Kate, what might be a more empathetic response to a kid or teen, or even an adult who's going through a hard time other than, again, I think the generous interpretation of when we're trying to be like, it's not that big of a deal, is that we're trying to fix it and make it better. But that may not have the effect that we want. So we know the empathetic listening or active listening is one of the foundational skills needed for grief literacy. What are some strategies from your research or your experience that we could implement to be maybe better empathetic listeners?

KATE BERARDI: One of my favorite strategies is to just sit with someone in their grieving space. So to even respond with, I'm not sure what to say right now or I don't feel like I have the words for you, but I will sit here with you. And we can talk about whatever you want to talk about. I'm here to listen. So that's one that sometimes in the moment you don't always think of, but just literally giving them time and space is something that is really helpful. But also, other responses can be instead of saying, what can I do for you and leaving it open ended, you could say things like, would it be helpful if I sat with you? Would it be helpful if I brought over dinner? Would it be helpful if I took your dog for a walk? So offering suggestions of things to help. And then if it's teens, if your teenager is trying to think of what to say to a friend, even just saying like, I hear what you're saying and not listening to respond immediately. So listening to listen, and staying in that space of asking questions, being curious, giving them the chance to talk and express. And like Julie was saying, explain what's going on in their minds and giving them the space to do that is a great way to respond in an empathetic way.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Charlene, have a follow up about something Kate said and something you and I talked about earlier on the phone. But first, Olivia, I'm just curious, watching that video of other grieving teens, do you have anything to add about what you think would be helpful? I know there's a lot of adults on here. I'm not trying to make you the representative of all teens in their grief experience. But as our resident teen on the call, do you have anything to add about what might be helpful?

OLIVIA EMENHISER: I think what they said was amazing that if teens are asking for space, I think you should give that to them. And just know, make sure that they know that you're there for them if they do want to talk. And what they said really summed it up.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: You and I-- I said, thank you. That's wonderful. And then I forgot that I was muted. Charlene, when you and I were talking right before this webinar, you said something I think ties back to what Kate just said, which is this idea of it being OK to admit that you don't have all the answers. Because I think we can put this pressure on ourselves that I think is actually what causes a lot of the withdrawal in the space of grief, that we need some sort of expertise or we need to have the perfect words. So I'm just curious about your reaction to that idea of assumed need for perfection versus just being real.

CHARLENE LAM: Right. And I think that speaks to what's our role when we're trying to support someone who's grieving. Like Julie said about, we're there to witness. I think often people think I need to fix it. I need to cheer them up. I need to make them feel better. And it often comes from a really good intentioned place, right? We care about this person. We don't want to see them sad. But I think that speaks to one of the fundamental misunderstandings. Sadness is not a problem. Whatever emotion comes up is not a problem. Grief is not a problem. Grief is a natural response to loss. So double-check yourself. Are you coming from a place of I want to fix it? There's if I think of the magical thing to say, if I think of the right thing to say, I can save them from this pain. That's not it. We're here to witness. We're here to be a friend. We're here to companion. Dr. Alan Wolfelt uses this term companioning someone in grief. And I really like that approach. Because anyone can be a companion. You don't need to be a therapist. You don't need to be a coach. You don't need to be an expert. Anyone can be a companion. So I think you don't need the perfect words. Show up human. Show up as yourself. Be there. Is that kind of what we're talking about, Lindsey?

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Absolutely it is. And I just want to emphasize, underscore, exclamation point, grief is not a problem. Sadness is not a problem. Anger is not a problem. Emotions are not a problem. Before I move on, we're going to get into some more communication around, especially talking with some younger kids around grief. But Adam, just we haven't checked in with you in a second. Do you have anything that's coming up for you that you want to share?

ADAM STEVENS: Oh, my gosh. Do I have anything that's coming up? There's so much that's coming up right now. What am I thinking about? I'm thinking about the need to fix it, to perfectly handle our grief processes in those that we care for our youth. And I'm thinking about how that's so connected to white supremacy, and how we need to dismantle white supremacy, and know that not all grief is the same, that grief shows up in very different ways, and that's OK. It's OK to be different. I want to humanize, not normalize, that grief is uncomfortable. And it is messy. And it can't be contained in a tidy box or structure, nor should it. And I really appreciate my colleagues and contemporaries here talking and speaking to be present. Show up. Listen. Listen. I'm thinking about how do we flip the script? Grief a lot of times is awkward and people like to stay away from it because what if I say the wrong thing and I cause more harm? What if I say the wrong thing and I do incredible damage to you, with the best of intentions? And so building our repertoire, building our script to say, just as was mentioned by Kate and Julie, these are some of the things that we can say just to make you feel a little bit better, to make sure that you're seen and heard. But the onus is on us to just be there. The onus is on us to listen, and it's to model. You know what I mean? A lot of times young people look to us to see something big happened and we're grieving in a collective way right now. How do we do this? Be honest. Be open. Be real and be human. And in doing so, we give permission to our young people-- children, adolescents, and young adults to do the same, but not the same, because they're going to do it in their way. And we get to validate and affirm that that's happening in their way. And that expression, you know, Dr. Tashel Bordere great researcher, works a lot with grief, speaks to suffocated. grief, right? And that suffocated. Grief becomes a toxin inside of us when we don't allow it to come out. And in being ourselves, being open, modeling, listening, creating space-- we get to take some of that. Not all of it, because we can't do that, but we get to take some of that suffocated grief and allow it to come out. So in this way we're able to do something with it, right? We're able to do something with it. And that feels really important. And I'm just reflecting back a lot of what I've heard and what I've experienced in my practice as a drama therapist and someone who works a lot with grief, in all kinds of grief.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you. And yes to all of that. Again, emphasize underscore all of those points. And I just want to say, you mentioned we're afraid of the words we might say might cause you harm. And that's often what keeps us. I don't think it can be overstated how much harm the lack of support can cause. So we'll just put that out there. But I do want to want to keep things moving along, so we'll circle back to that. Julie, we've been talking about talking with teens a lot. But I know we've gotten questions around particularly these conversations with younger children. So as a follow-up, I want to share an email that we received. Leah asks, what specific discussion points are age appropriate for four to five-year-olds? Are there specifics to avoid? We also received a question from Gerald, who asked about how to tell a child about a death, and from Sarah, who wants to know how to talk about death with toddlers. So, Julie, I think all of these are getting at that same point of how do you share news, how do you answer questions, you know, in an age appropriate way?

JULIE KAPLOW: Sure. I think one of the most important things to be thinking about when we think about how to talk to young children in particular, is what are they struggling with in that moment? And so for a two or three year old, they're not completely understanding the permanence of a death. So if we're talking about death, in particular, they cognitively can't really understand that. Often they will assume that the person is coming back. I mean we've literally had heartbreaking situations where three-year-olds will sit by the door waiting for the person to return. And so in those circumstances, we want to make sure that we are really explaining to kids. And again, this is where it gets really tough for adults, because they don't want to talk about it with young children. But what we really need to do is get concrete with them and use very simple language, but to literally help them understand that when someone dies, it means that they are not going to come back physically, that their body has stopped working, that they can't feel anything. They can't feel pain. And really, we get questions from very young children like, well, how are they going to eat dinner if they're underground in the coffin? You know, that is how concrete they are. And so really helping them to understand those concepts and also to help them understand that death is not contagious. So young children get very fearful sometimes that, well, if this happened to them, it could happen to me. We also use language with kids sometimes that is not so helpful. So things like, your dad was too good for this world. And so, God took him to be an angel or whatever it is. And you know what often happens after that, is that young children will start acting out because they don't want to die. They're not ready to die. So they think, well, if I'm too good, look what happened. So the reason I'm using these examples is because I think it really speaks to the need to be very straightforward and concrete with young children. And again, what I will always go back to is naming the feeling. So, helping kids to give words to their emotional experience, I'm feeling sad. That's something a mom or dad can say. You might be feeling sad, too. But you might have other feelings. What are some of the feelings you're having? So really allowing them that space to tell you whatever it is they're feeling. And the final thing I'll say is the most important thing for young children, is to feel like there is still someone who's going to take care of them. When there is any kind of loss, especially a death, that is the number one fear. Is this going to happen again. Are people going to leave? Who else is going to leave? And so by affirming for them, this is so sad. We are all very upset. We are going to get through this. And I am here to make sure that you're OK. And I'm here to protect you. That is probably the most important thing that parents can do for very young children.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: That's all so good. And I just want to really follow up on the questions point, because I think what I've heard from people is breaking news is hard enough, and then it's like you want to get it done. And then end the conversation, because how do I handle the questions when I don't know what's coming next? So is there any general guidance you can give when a child starts asking questions after you've shared the news with them.

JULIE KAPLOW: So I think we have to remember that this is not a one-and-done conversation and that these questions are going to continue to come up literally through the course of the child's life. So first, I think just being open to that and recognizing that there are going to be more questions, and naming that for the kids, that you might have questions that I might not even be able to answer. But I want to hear what those questions are. And then again, meeting them where they're at. So I know I mentioned this earlier, but sometimes as caring adults we either give too much information or we don't give any information at all. And we back away from the topic. So when I say allowing the child to guide the conversation, what I mean is literally saying something like, I'm very sad about what happened. You might be sad too, but you might have other feelings. What feelings do you have or what worries do you have? What's on your mind? So that way you are literally giving them information they need to know on a need-to-know basis, not overwhelming them, and they're in control. That empowers the child to be able to tell you, here's what I need you to know right now, and we can revisit it again. It is not the last time we're going to talk about it. It's something that we're going to revisit time and time again.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I think that's so important too, is inviting future conversation. And one thing that is coming up for me is something Christina Cipriano, who was interviewed for Speaking Grief, shared that I remember just blowing my mind in the interview was, kids won't ask questions that they're not ready for the answers to. And so, as you said, I want to emphasize that letting kids drive the conversation through their questions and in that age appropriate way. And on that last follow-up up of talking with kids about these is the topic of talking about death and grief and all types of grief can be hard enough. But we've receive several questions around talking with kids and teens about losses that may be more stigmatized like a death by suicide, like substance use related death and overdose. And also, share that very recently in our own state college community, there was a death by suicide of a young student. And so I imagine some of the folks in this chat may be coming from that place of feeling this very acute need to be able to communicate with the kids and teens in their life about this death. So would any of that change or is there anything you would add, Julie, to when it is a death by suicide? And there may be even more questions or more resistance on our part as the caring adult to provide answers to those questions.

JULIE KAPLOW: Yes. And it is such a difficult topic because so much of when we're talking about a stigmatized death, what we're often talking about is more than just feelings of sadness. It is often accompanied by feelings of guilt, remorse, concern. Is this going to happen to someone else? And so, you know, I guess the first thing I would say is that when it is a death by suicide in particular, we always want to focus on what does the family want shared. So, we get this question all the time, especially if there is a death by suicide in a school or a community setting. And what we want to do first is make sure that whatever information we're sharing is OK with the family. And sometimes families are very open about that, and want that information shared, and are actually advocates for talking openly about suicide. Other families may not be quite ready for that. And so we want to be respectful of what it is they feel most comfortable with. But when we're talking to kids about a suicide death, often questions come up around is suicide contagious? You know, just like cancer, they will ask questions about why the person did what they did. And often what we want to do is help frame it in the context of a mental illness being like a physical illness. And when there is a mental illness involved, we don't always make the best decisions, that sometimes it's really hard to make good decisions when we are so bogged down by that deep depression. And so helping kids to really understand what this looks like, but again, being open to whatever questions they have and allowing them to guide the conversation, I cannot emphasize that enough. Because sometimes what they're worried about is not at all what we as adults assume they're worried about. So that's my take on it. But I will mention that we do have a handout for caregivers that's focused explicitly on how to talk to kids about a suicide death on our TAG Center website. And I'm happy to put that in the chat.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: That would be great if you could share that. And as we're going to move this into some of the behaviors we can model, I just want to note as I'm hearing this, I'm thinking about I was interviewed to promote this webinar on a radio show this morning, and I was asked why kids have an especially hard time with loss. And I said, actually, I feel like kids do it better than we do because they haven't learned to clamp down those emotions and experiences. And we're actually the ones often who are of modeling this avoidance of our feelings. And I feel like especially with a death like a suicide, we have so much more programming around discomfort with that topic. So I'm going to open this to the panel. Maybe, Adam, I see you nodding, what we can do to watch, subtle messaging we may be conveying about our own discomfort with this topic. And we'll be realistic. It's not like you can suddenly tell yourself, I'm not going to be uncomfortable with this. But how to navigate that so that your discomfort doesn't become the thing that they model?

ADAM STEVENS: Yeah. And thank you for bringing this in. And Julie, I really appreciate everything that you offered there. It's just so important. I'm thinking a lot about projections, and how we as, quote, "grown-ups" project a lot onto the youth that we are supporting, the youth that we are working with. And this also includes our feelings around some really complicated situations-- suicide, incarceration, big deal events, wars and school bombings, and shootings, and things of that nature. And it's our projections. It's what we are holding. There's a really great drama therapist, an expressive arts therapist named Dr. Britton Williams, who speaks to minding our bias. And when we mind our bias, we locate ourselves and we acknowledge what we are holding. And that enables us to be more present, because we're able to see this is mine and this is what I'm holding, and this is not yours. And that's a really important step in terms of working with and also being present. I also want to introduce the concept of harm reduction. How do we take what's happening, that is labeled with stigma, and shame, and negativity, and how do we minimize it? We're speaking to public health crises a lot of times. We're speaking to human rights crises a lot of times around this stuff. And how do we use a harm reduction approach to say, yes, this is happening, but reduce some of the stigma attached by rooting it in a community-based and public health practice? I feel that it's really important to acknowledge and engage. And lastly, I'll say education, education the word, we brought in suicide, right? Suicide is prevalent across all communities in its own way. And so what does suicide mean? How does it happen? And developmentally, there's ways to talk to a two-year-old, a five-year-old, a 10-year-old, a 15-year-old. There's ways in which to introduce this to them. So that this way they become literate and have an understanding and they're not afraid of it. And if they are afraid of it, guess what? That is also OK. But they're afraid based upon knowledge, not a lack of knowledge. And that is so, so, so important. And the last thing I'll say about this here in this moment is we need to really be in touch with what we're feeling around it, and be careful not to bestow that onto others. Allow them to have their experience. Allow them to have the education. So this way they can move through and develop their thoughts and feelings about it in a way supported and guided by us. And that's really, really important. Lindsey, you're on mute.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I caught it. I said, so much good stuff. I'm seeing lots of great reactions in the chat. And also just to place myself as a proxy to make sure I'm understanding this also on behalf of folks watching and listening. As you were talking about, not projecting, owning what's ours and what's theirs, in practicality would that look like-- as you're talking about a death by suicide, I'm feeling kind of uncomfortable. But that's my stuff. And if you sense that, I want to make sure you know that that is mine. It doesn't have to be yours. That kind of language, is that what we're talking about? OK, great. I just want to make sure.

ADAM STEVENS: Absolutely that's what we're talking about. And Lindsey, the students that you showed through the video, right? They said, don't infantilize us. Don't baby us. Please be real. And you know it was said, I forget it was either Kate or Julie who said, or maybe it was you, Lindsay. They're not going to ask questions or inquire about things that they're not ready for. If they're inquiring, there's a curiosity which speaks to a need that needs to be accessed, a need that needs to be addressed. Because it takes bravery and courage to ask some of these big deal questions. And if they're asking these big deal questions, then I hope that we are ready to respond in the best ways that we can.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you. We have about 10 minutes left. I'm going to try to get as many of these as we can. I do want to note, Charlene, you had shared that you can find metaphor a helpful tool in the work that you're doing. And you talk about the inner grief weather, which I feel like can be a helpful language tool for, for folks as they sort of build up their grief literacy muscles and get comfortable having these conversations. So could you briefly just share with us what you mean by that and how that might look like in navigating a conversation around grief?

CHARLENE LAM: Absolutely. I just wanted to add onto in terms of what Adam was saying, I wanted to add honor the relationship that the young person had with the person. That I think often when there are these stigmatized situations, the rest of the family might see them as a black sheep. I had an uncle who died by suicide. I had an uncle who was incarcerated, different uncles. I was never told any of that. My family saw them as black sheeps. And to me, they were just my uncles. So I would say I just wanted to add that honor the relationship that the person has with the person. Right? And yes, inner grief weather. This is a helpful metaphor that I use for myself as well as with clients. And I find this is helpful for people of all ages. It's a way to check in with ourselves. Because sometimes, yes, I can name sadness, but it doesn't even evoke what I'm feeling. And the idea is we've talked a little bit about how people try to make people feel better, right? We talk about the rainbows. We talk about the silver linings, and people want to rush to that. And what brought the idea of inner grief weather to me was my feeling of saying, you know what? F your rainbows. You can edit that language for whatever is age appropriate. But there were definitely points after my mother died where I didn't want to hear about the silver linings. I didn't want to hear about the rainbows. I was in a storm of grief. Acute grief can feel like you're being in a storm and you're just trying to get through it. And then even 10 years after my mother died, there are days where I'm like dark clouds, just my inner grief weather is just dark clouds and rain. And me being able to use that language to check in with myself and ask what's my inner grief weather today was so helpful just to check in with myself, but then also to communicate it with someone else. And I think you can imagine how that metaphor makes sense for a lot of people. I've even posted it on Instagram, and said, leave an emoji. What's your inner grief weather today? You don't even need to have the words. There's a whole range of emojis. And I just find it's a really flexible way to talk about what we're feeling and to acknowledge what we're feeling. And of course, weather isn't linear, right? Sunshine, I'm ready for rainbows today. I want to hear all about it. Nope, back to dark clouds. It's Mother's Day. It's my mother's death anniversary. Dark clouds are back. So I just wanted to offer that as a flexible way to check in with yourself and with other people. And I think particularly for young people, it's a helpful way to contrast what you're feeling on the inside with what might be happening outside. It might be a beautiful blue sky day. Everyone else seems to be having a great time. And you and your grief feel different. Other kids your age don't get it. But you've got dark clouds inside. And it's OK to acknowledge that. There's nothing wrong with it. You're just checking in with your own inner grief weather.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I love that so much. And I love also not just the rapidly changing, but the nuance of it. I'm picturing the days when like the sun's coming through, but it might still be drizzling because actually one of the other videos on the website, those group of students, one of them shared sometimes our emotions are just beyond language. We don't have the verbiage. So I think that's a really helpful way of thinking about that. We are down to about five minutes, so I'm going to try to get through some of the other questions that have come in. Let's see. We had a question around when professional help might be needed. So we had this question. Jamie wrote, do all kids need therapy? What if we did not see a therapist? Have I put my kid at a disadvantage? And even though we've been talking about curiosity and not assumption, I'm going to make some assumptions about this. I'm going to take this to mean do all kids who have experienced a bereavement that is a grief related to a death, need therapy? And Julie, how would you assess whether or not therapy or other professional-level interventions are needed, or when it is a normal, healthy grief response?

JULIE KAPLOW: Yeah. So I want to start by saying that the vast majority of kids who are bereaved go on to lead healthy, happy, productive lives without therapy. One of the ways that we can tell whether a child might need a higher level of care, so beyond just familial support or peer support, is really thinking about their functioning. So if we have a child who is crying every day, all day for months at a time, but they're still able to go to school, they're still able to do the things they need to do, they're getting through it. And it doesn't seem to be impacting the way that they function in daily life. They would not necessarily need therapy. But if it seems to be really infringing on doing the kid things that they used to enjoy doing, then we'd want to pay close attention and think about having them evaluated. Other red flags, I would say, would be any talk of wanting to harm themselves, of course. Risk taking behaviors that are basically putting them in danger, social withdrawal, to the point where they really are not interacting with other people at all. And sometimes under traumatic circumstances, if it appears that they have post-traumatic stress, so things like not wanting to think about or talk about the death accompanied by flashbacks, feeling like the death is happening all over again. Numbing, where they truly appear, like they have no feelings at all, or hypervigilance where they are on edge all the time, and jumpy, and are startled very easily. Those are the kinds of things we would be looking for. But again, I just want to reiterate that the vast majority of bereaved youth will not need therapy.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I do also want to note that we have a page that Julie helped us craft on the Learning Grief website that also kind of explores some of those differences between grief and trauma because we can lump them together or not. And Julie, just a quick follow-up, is it ever appropriate, especially if you're talking with an older child or a teen to ask them, would you like to talk to someone? Would it be helpful for you to talk to someone who's not me?

JULIE KAPLOW: Absolutely. And I think it is important to normalize therapy as well. So to be able to say, lots of kids benefit from being able to talk to a therapist. That doesn't mean you have to. That doesn't mean you need to. It's just an option. The other thing I'll quickly add is that if you go to the TAG Center website, and I know that was posted earlier, we actually have a very brief grief risk screener for children that kids can fill out or the parent can fill it out with them. It's literally six items. And it will actually tell you whether it appears as though an evaluation would be important, so to have them seek therapy. So if parents are confused, we get this question all the time. This is one way to figure that out.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Wonderful and unfortunately we are out of time. I had about three more pages of questions. As always, I just want to thank you all. This was such a wonderful conversation. I'm going to end with a round robin question, because we do like to give people sort of specific action items. And I know a lot of people have shared that on Speaking Grief and hopefully soon on Learning Grief, some of our guidance with specific language is helpful. So I'm going to ground for each of you, if you were with someone going through a hard time, a grief of whatever kind, what would your go-to phrase be or go to action be if you're feeling unsure, like I'll say for me, I tend to go with, you know, I wish I knew what to say, but I just want you to know I care about you and sit with them. Kate, what would you-- I'll just kind of go around. Kate, what comes up for you in response to supporting someone?

KATE BERARDI: Often it is what you just said, where I'd say, I'm here with you as we work through this. But also just letting them know that they have a listening ear whenever they need it, and they can reach out to me at any time, day or night, without any judgment or consequences.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: And then I'm assuming the follow-up of actually being there for them to hear it.

KATE BERARDI: Yes. Hopefully right, exactly. Hopefully actually following through. Yes.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Julie, what's one of your go-to's.

JULIE KAPLOW: I think we already talked about this. But what I would generally say is that I may not have the right words to say how I'm feeling, but I really, really want to hear how you're feeling. And I want to be here to listen. And so conveying that message of please tell me how you're feeling, because I'm really curious and I want to know.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you. Olivia, what about you? What's something you tend to say?

OLIVIA EMENHISER: Saying that I'm here for you. And if you want to talk or don't want to talk, that I'm here and I'm here to listen. And I don't understand what you're going through. But I'm just here if you need anyone.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you. Charlene?

CHARLENE LAM: I like to say you don't need to edit yourself. Don't worry about holding back. I'm here.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: Thank you. And Adam?

ADAM STEVENS: Everything that's been said. And also for those who don't speak in a way that language is normalized, let's do something. Let's make something. Whether it's cooking, or playing basketball, or creating art, let's do something. And I'm going to do it with you. And I'm not going to leave you.

LINDSEY WHISSEL FENTON: I'm not going to leave you. This has all been so helpful. Again, wish we had more time, but that is all for this webinar. If you know someone who wanted to attend but couldn't be with us or that you think might find this helpful, we will be sending out the link. It will be on learninggrief.org. To stay informed of future events, you can sign up for the Speaking Grief e-newletter. So these again are sister initiatives that work in tandem together. And our moderator will post that sign-up link in the chat, so you can never miss an event that we do. I want to thank all of you for being here in the chat, contributing to this discussion. I've been watching the comments. It's been a great discussion. I also, of course, want to thank our panelists Dr. Kate Berardi, Olivia Emenhiser, Dr. Julie Kaplow, Charlene Lam, Adam Stevens. This discussion is brought to you by Learning Grief, our brand new initiative that helps adults and help kids and teens in their life navigate the big feelings around loss. And I know that link has been shared many, many times. But it is learninggrief.org. And Learning Grief is a sister initiative of speakinggrief.org. Learning Grief is brand new, produced by WPSU with funding provided by Imagine Learning Foundation. For more resources and for this webinar, you can visit that learninggrief.org. I think I also saw our Facebook links. We are using @WPSUGrief on Facebook and Instagram to share resources and updates about both speaking grief and learning grief. So I know those were posted in the chat. And lastly, as we continue to grow all of our grief initiatives, your feedback is invaluable. So we would appreciate if you would fill out our survey. I will also just be real and say that some of these responses can be really helpful as we seek opportunities to grow these projects through new fundings, create new initiatives. So it would be such a kindness if you would take that time just to fill out a quick survey and provide a comment or two. And also it is required for Pennsylvania educators who are seeking Act 48 credits to fill that out. So that link is in the chat. Again thank you all for being here. I'm Lindsey Whissel Fenton, and for me, for our panelists, and for all of us at WPSU, we want to thank you, and be well.

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